how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

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how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

refik
Dear all,

Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe. We were lucky and it did not crash.

I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it already? 

Regards,
Refik

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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

Reto Büttner
Hi Refik
 
The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:
 
 
As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.
 
Didn't this work in your case?
 
Regards
Reto
 


2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
Dear all,

Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe. We were lucky and it did not crash.

I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it already? 

Regards,
Refik

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[hidden email]
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel



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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

Martin Mueller
Hi,

> The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:
>
> http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
>
> As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358

Martin


>
> Didn't this work in your case?
>
> Regards
> Reto
>
>
>
> 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
>
> >  Dear all,
> >
> > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> >
> > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> > already?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Refik
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

Reto Büttner
Thanks for the advice. This is really an annoying behaviour and a clear step back from infrared attitude estimation.
 
I would heavily prefer a software solution for graceful degradation as discussed in issue#358. I don't like an additional GPS as it adds complexity, failure modes, cost, weight and installation and service effort.
 
Any solutions on providing an AHRS algorithm robust to GPS loss are highly appreciated. For a limited timespan of 10, 20 or maybe even more seconds that should be quite easily possible.
 
Regards, Reto
 


2013/8/15 Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
Hi,

> The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:
>
> http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
>
> As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358

Martin


>
> Didn't this work in your case?
>
> Regards
> Reto
>
>
>
> 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
>
> >  Dear all,
> >
> > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> >
> > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> > already?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Refik
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

refik
In reply to this post by refik
Hello,

Reto:
>As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.
>
>Didn't this work in your case?

Martin:
>this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
>attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

Actually we did not tune our failsafe properly. And we are using energy control loops.

In the second flight, we tried to tune the failsafe and we manually switched to GPS_LOST state. It was better, but again it did not properly control the airplane.

Reto:
>I don't like an additional GPS as it adds
>complexity, failure modes, cost, weight and installation and service effort.

We can tolerate the additional weight, complexity and service effort. Is there anyone who added a second GPS?

Best regards,
Refik

 

__________________________________

Hi Refik

The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:

http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost

As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

Didn't this work in your case?

Regards
Reto



2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>

>  Dear all,
>
> Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> We were lucky and it did not crash.
>
> I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> already?
>
> Regards,
> Refik
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:52:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi,

> The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:
>
> http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
>
> As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358

Martin


>
> Didn't this work in your case?
>
> Regards
> Reto
>
>
>
> 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
>
> >? Dear all,
> >
> > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> >
> > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> > already?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Refik
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:17:42 +0200
From: Reto B?ttner <[hidden email]>
To: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>,  "[hidden email]"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks for the advice. This is really an annoying behaviour and a clear
step back from infrared attitude estimation.

I would heavily prefer a software solution for graceful degradation as
discussed in issue#358. I don't like an additional GPS as it adds
complexity, failure modes, cost, weight and installation and service effort.

Any solutions on providing an AHRS algorithm robust to GPS loss are highly
appreciated. For a limited timespan of 10, 20 or maybe even more seconds
that should be quite easily possible.

Regards, Reto



2013/8/15 Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>

> Hi,
>
> > The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation,
> see:
> >
> > http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
> >
> > As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.
>
> this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If
> the
> attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.
>
> https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358
>
> Martin
>
>
> >
> > Didn't this work in your case?
> >
> > Regards
> > Reto
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
> >
> > >  Dear all,
> > >
> > > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to
> failsafe.
> > > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> > >
> > > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone
> implemented it
> > > already?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Refik
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 14:36:23 +0200
From: Felix Ruess <[hidden email]>
To: Paparazzi devel list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how see a/c heading in GCS
Message-ID:
        <CAEc+GFcc3onh-LMEu5TBgwLW3_7rpebNa2Q=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Alonso,

the aircraft icon on the map shows you which way it's pointing...
It might be nice however to add the aircraft heading to the PFD at the
bottom, anyone up for this?

Cheers, Felix


On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:49 AM, alonso acu?a <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello. Is there a way to see which way the aircraft nose is pointing? For
> example I would like to see if the aircraft is pointing straight north.
>
> thanks
>
> Alonso Acu?a
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

AJ Kochevar

What caused the GPS outage? 

On Aug 15, 2013 8:50 AM, "Refik Sever" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

Reto:
>As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.
>
>Didn't this work in your case?

Martin:
>this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
>attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

Actually we did not tune our failsafe properly. And we are using energy control loops.

In the second flight, we tried to tune the failsafe and we manually switched to GPS_LOST state. It was better, but again it did not properly control the airplane.

Reto:
>I don't like an additional GPS as it adds
>complexity, failure modes, cost, weight and installation and service effort.

We can tolerate the additional weight, complexity and service effort. Is there anyone who added a second GPS?

Best regards,
Refik



__________________________________

Hi Refik

The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:

http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost

As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

Didn't this work in your case?

Regards
Reto



2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>

>  Dear all,
>
> Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> We were lucky and it did not crash.
>
> I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> already?
>
> Regards,
> Refik
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:52:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi,

> The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation, see:
>
> http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
>
> As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.

this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If the
attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.

https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358

Martin


>
> Didn't this work in your case?
>
> Regards
> Reto
>
>
>
> 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
>
> >? Dear all,
> >
> > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe.
> > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> >
> > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it
> > already?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Refik
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:17:42 +0200
From: Reto B?ttner <[hidden email]>
To: Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>,  "[hidden email]"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks for the advice. This is really an annoying behaviour and a clear
step back from infrared attitude estimation.

I would heavily prefer a software solution for graceful degradation as
discussed in issue#358. I don't like an additional GPS as it adds
complexity, failure modes, cost, weight and installation and service effort.

Any solutions on providing an AHRS algorithm robust to GPS loss are highly
appreciated. For a limited timespan of 10, 20 or maybe even more seconds
that should be quite easily possible.

Regards, Reto



2013/8/15 Martin Mueller <[hidden email]>

> Hi,
>
> > The behaviour at GPS loss can be configured for graceful degradation,
> see:
> >
> > http://paparazzi.enac.fr/wiki/Failsafe#GPS_signal_lost
> >
> > As soon as GPS is back, normal behaviour should restore.
>
> this was designed in the good old days of infrared attitude estimation. If
> the
> attitude algorithm needs GPS it might fail after some time.
>
> https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/358
>
> Martin
>
>
> >
> > Didn't this work in your case?
> >
> > Regards
> > Reto
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/8/15 Refik Sever <[hidden email]>
> >
> > >  Dear all,
> > >
> > > Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to
> failsafe.
> > > We were lucky and it did not crash.
> > >
> > > I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone
> implemented it
> > > already?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Refik
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 14:36:23 +0200
From: Felix Ruess <[hidden email]>
To: Paparazzi devel list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how see a/c heading in GCS
Message-ID:
        <CAEc+GFcc3onh-LMEu5TBgwLW3_7rpebNa2Q=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Alonso,

the aircraft icon on the map shows you which way it's pointing...
It might be nice however to add the aircraft heading to the PFD at the
bottom, anyone up for this?

Cheers, Felix


On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:49 AM, alonso acu?a <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello. Is there a way to see which way the aircraft nose is pointing? For
> example I would like to see if the aircraft is pointing straight north.
>
> thanks
>
> Alonso Acu?a
>
> _______________________________________________
> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

Hwarm
In reply to this post by refik
Hi Refik,
you can use multi norm receivers for GPS and GOLNASS etc.  http://www.nvs-gnss.com/products/receivers/item/2-nv08c-csm.html
Three is a module for 45 Euro available. You have to add the antenna and to wrote a  new  driver for paparazzi.
My smart phone has also the same chip set. Usually i receive  17-19 satellites.
Heinrich


Refik Sever schrieb:
Dear all,

Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to failsafe. We were lucky and it did not crash.

I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone implemented it already? 

Regards,
Refik

_______________________________________________ Paparazzi-devel mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel

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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

refik
In reply to this post by refik
Hello Heinrich,

Thank you for your email. I will buy this GPS and try to integrate it.

In the datasheet it is written that it tracks both GPS and GLONASS satellites. But, it is also written:

"A very compact and complete GNSS receiver can be integrated on a low cost 2 or 4-layer PCB with a minimal number of external passive parts."

I get confused. Do I need to buy another PCB and solder it? Or does it already track two system?

I will use this GPS, but I still want to use another GPS simultaneously in order to switch in case of a chip failure.
If nobody has implemented it, we will try to do.

Best regards,
Refik



>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 19:02:35 +0200
>From: "Prof. Dr.-Ing. Heinrich Warmers" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9"; Format="flowed"
>
>Hi Refik,
>you can use multi norm receivers for GPS and GOLNASS etc.
>http://www.nvs-gnss.com/products/receivers/item/2-nv08c-csm.html
>Three is a module for 45 Euro available. You have to add the antenna and
>to wrote a  new  driver for paparazzi.
>My smart phone has also the same chip set. Usually i receive  17-19
>satellites.
>Heinrich


>Refik Sever schrieb:

> Dear all,
>
> Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to
> failsafe. We were lucky and it did not crash.
>
> I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone
> implemented it already?
>
> Regards,
> Refik
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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Re: how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?

AJ Kochevar
How do you know the 2 second cut out what a chip failure?  Do you have data to back this up?




On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Refik Sever <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Heinrich,

Thank you for your email. I will buy this GPS and try to integrate it.

In the datasheet it is written that it tracks both GPS and GLONASS satellites. But, it is also written:

"A very compact and complete GNSS receiver can be integrated on a low cost 2 or 4-layer PCB with a minimal number of external passive parts."

I get confused. Do I need to buy another PCB and solder it? Or does it already track two system?

I will use this GPS, but I still want to use another GPS simultaneously in order to switch in case of a chip failure.
If nobody has implemented it, we will try to do.

Best regards,
Refik



>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 19:02:35 +0200
>From: "Prof. Dr.-Ing. Heinrich Warmers" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Paparazzi-devel] how to use 2 GPS simultaneously?
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9"; Format="flowed"
>
>Hi Refik,
>you can use multi norm receivers for GPS and GOLNASS etc.
>http://www.nvs-gnss.com/products/receivers/item/2-nv08c-csm.html
>Three is a module for 45 Euro available. You have to add the antenna and
>to wrote a  new  driver for paparazzi.
>My smart phone has also the same chip set. Usually i receive  17-19
>satellites.
>Heinrich


>Refik Sever schrieb:

> Dear all,
>
> Yesterday, our GPS was lost for 2 seconds and our plane went to
> failsafe. We were lucky and it did not crash.
>
> I want to add a second GPS for reliability. Is there anyone
> implemented it already?
>
> Regards,
> Refik
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>
>
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End of Paparazzi-devel Digest, Vol 113, Issue 39
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